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How to Fail at Arguing #6: As others do to us

28 Jul

A 15 story mosque and Islamic community center has been approved within blocks of the site of 9/11. Naturally many New Yorkers and others are outraged because this is the site of a national tragedy and those who attacked civilians there did so in the name of Islam. Planting a mosque at the site seems incredibly insensitive and offensive to the memory of those who died on 9/11. The leader of the mosque project has said 9/11 was America’s fault and at least somewhat justified, refuses to call Hammas (not to be confused with hommus) a terrorist group, and the project is being funded from Islamic groups in Islamic countries. There’s a lot of reasons people are concerned.

That’s the story, here’s the argument I keep hearing:

We’ll let mosques be built anywhere when every Muslim country lets churches and synagogues be built freely.

Mosque at Ground Zero Protesters

Image from article on Politico.com

Whatever the right thing is, it is not to lower our standards, as a country that champions religious liberty, to those of countries to not allow religious liberty.

By justifying your actions by those of another, you’ve walked away from your own principles. If the above argument is all you have, you’re saying you want to belong to an anti-freedom country, though you condemn them.

This failure in arguing happens frequently, thanks in part to the short length of political terms (though it isn’t limited to politics).

That Democrats manipulated Republican primary elections is not, in itself, reason for the Republicans who champion ethics and character to manipulate elections. That liberals expand government is not justification for “conservatives,” who champion smaller government to expand government.

If you violate the principles you claim as your own, you lack character. Your choices are not justified by comparing them to those who don’t claim to hold the same principles you do.

There are legitimate reasons for wanting this Mosque moved to another location. But the more conversations and airwaves are filled with poor arguments like this, the less likely real dialog is possible.

Edit: Added new image and fixed some typos. (8/18/2010 – Second Jon)

Related posts:

  1. How to Fail at Arguing #5
  2. How to Fail at Arguing #1
  3. How to Fail at Arguing #3
  4. How to Fail at Arguing #2
  5. How to Fail at Arguing #4
 
9 Comments

Posted in How to Fail at Arguing, Politics, Spirituality

 

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  • Lori

    I heard yesterday that the Mosque has been approved, yet a Greek Orthodox church that was destroyed by 9/11 fallout has been told they will have to rebuild at another site. I know I object to the Mosque being built because it is so disrespectful, yet perhaps if Muslims weren’t the favored religious group I would feel better about the situation.

    • Here’s the story about the Greek Orthodox church. I wasn’t familiar with the story, thanks for sharing it.

      The reason why the Mosque shouldn’t be build so close to ground zero is the same reason a temple to Japanese emperor-worship and the promotion thereof would have been a bad idea to build at Pearl Harbor.

  • Lori Engel

    Now Pelosi wants those opposed to the Mosque to be investigated, how can the left be so far away from reality?

  • Rob Green

    Your point is well taken.

    I know this is a stretch, but there’s a precedent for comparing and matching with other countries. Did you know that a visa to come to the US from another country is actually based on the cost the other country puts on a visa for a US citizen? Some countries grant their visas for very low money, while others charge a great deal. So, here in the U.S. we charge roughly the same amount for foreigners to get a visa here… and it varies greatly from country to country of origin.

    • @Rob – that makes sense, but amounts of fees aren’t a matter of Constitutional principle. I’m not saying you can’t ever compare yourself with someone who differs in worldview, but the comparison is only valid on shared principles. You can’t excuse your behavior because someone else did it when you say you consider it ethical (or unethical) and they think the opposite.

      If you do that, you’ve lost the argument and compromised your principles.

  • Dan Green

    Another thing I’ve noticed is commentators saying things like “it would be one thing if they only opposed this mosque at ground zero, but they are opposed to building any mosques anywhere” I’m sure there are people like that out there, but I don’t think that’s the case for most people. I haven’t heard anybody calling for a ban on mosque building. I see two new ways to fail at arguing here. 1, lump your opponent in with the wacky fringe that might agree with them a little bit. You can see this done with the Tea Party or any criticizer or Obama. One racist sign at a tea Party, and all tea partiers are only motivated by racism, and yes some people don’t like Obama because he’s black, therefore if you don’t like Obama, it is because he’s black. Its a failure of basic logic. Just because all dogs are animals, doesn’t mean all animals are dogs. 2, twist the argument to make it sound more extreme. I think most people don’t like the thought of a mosque at ground zero, but if you find out that the vocal opponents of the mosque are against all mosques anywhere and just because they hate Muslims, you’re not gonna want to take their side.

  • I wonder how many people who think Obama is a Muslim realize that Christians and Muslims believe in the same God?

    • Hi Mark,

      Thanks for your comment. Unfortunately, I’d have to disagree. Muslims and Christians do not believe in the same God. The characteristics of Allah and of the Christian God are so different they are incompatible.

      One man who describes an animal that is gray, small enough to hold in his hand, furry with a longs skinny tail as long as it’s body, perky round ears and whiskers is not describing the same animal as a man who talks about one that is gray, bigger than human, feet like trees, a trunk, tusks, large floppy ears, and leathery skin. Even if the elephant-describing man says he’s talking about the same animal, descriptions of a mouse and an elephant cannot be the same animal. Allah according to the Koran and God according to the Bible are just as different, even though the Koran say they’re the same.

      Here’s more.

  • Ben

    Islam is certainly favored here, and I can’t help but wonder why.

    The mosque is a bad idea because this is something that Muslims do on sites of conquest by their people, and we should oppose this because we are far from conquered. I believe in the freedom of religious worship, however the religion itself dictates that infidels who refuse to convert should be killed.

    I’m wondering that if someone should start a religion which in it’s precepts says “one should kill Muslims,” what would happen when that religion tried to build a church.