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Is Discussing Masculinity Anti-Woman?

26 Jul
Finger faces: angry woman, sad man

Umm… women can be brave too?

Due to a story I’ll type sometime, related to the category “Pink Sweater Jesus,” I’ve been looking into masculinity in our culture and in my faith. I came across an Christianity Today blog post criticizing John Piper for saying to an audience of men that Jesus and Christianity were masculine.

In addition to a fundamental misunderstanding of the history of the feminine “feel” of Christianity (here’s a hint: the church doesn’t feel feminine because there’s more women in the church, there’s more women in the church because it feels feminine, but more on the history of this later), the post and many comments are very strongly reactive. If Piper was telling men about being masculine, he must be insulting women!

Two commenters responded to a statement by Piper about masculinity being associated with bravery. A man responded that being told he had to be brave felt like being forced into a straight jacket. A woman commented that this must mean Piper doesn’t think women can be brave.

I haven’t read or listened to what Piper said here, but stating that masculinity is associated with something:

  • does not mean every man is characterized by it and
  • does not mean women or even femininity isn’t characterized by it.

For example,

“Manly men are considerate and respectful”

is not a statement to emasculate inconsiderate men, nor a statement that women are inconsiderate and disrespectful.

Much of what I’ve been reading is talk/instruction/advice to men, not to draw a contrast or even touch the subject of what women are like or ought to be like. It’s just talking to men about being men.

Yet, it seems like unsafe territory in a world when people are eager to take offense.

Related posts:

  1. Ayn Rand Part 1: Ayn Rand, John Piper and Christian Objectivist Love
 
9 Comments

Posted in Pink Sweater Jesus, Spirituality

 

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  • Christensen

    Jon, I have been enjoying reading your blog. Though, you know I would somewhat disagree with you on this. I haven’t read John Piper’s comments, so I will not react to them. However, I did read this article that upheld the three men who threw themselves on their girlfriend’s during the Colorado shooting and thus died as following a men’s “code of honor”. When I read such things, it bothers me (not that it is offensive to me (because I know I’m a man…and I would most likely throw myself on my girlfriend too…not out of a sense of manliness but out of sense of love…and I know she would do the same . So, it is really who throws themselves first. 🙂 ). But I do find such comments belittling of women because it uplifts an ideal of men that dominates physically or such over women, as in women are in need of saving. And, yes, statements like Piper’s (I can only assume) do imply that all men should be like such and such, and if they are not, then they are somehow less of a man. However, you are right the statement doesn’t imply that women cannot be brave too. But how is bravery a dominion of men only? Doesn’t the Bible exhort ALL to have courage (John 16:33)? One last note…men here in Korea do wear pink sweaters as pink is a neutral color here. 🙂

    • Hi Christensen, thanks for the comment.

      I also haven’t read Piper’s comments, but I think masculinity includes bravery. I think femininity includes bravery, yet it seems people to on the attack if the masculine statement is made. It’s kosher to say femininity includes bravery, but of one says men should be brave, it’s sexist.

      I’m reading a few books about etiquette for men. One of them is from a descendant of Emily Post, and begins with the foundation of: men should be considerate, respectful, and honest. Yet many would read this and be insulted on behalf of women everywhere, that this is said of men, in a book for men. Does the author need to qualify every statement about men and address historical and cultural gender traditions and their philosophical validity? I have 3 boys and mentor high school and college age men. Do I need to qualify everything I say about men and masculinity or risk offending people? Probably.

      I’m growing less concerned about offending the easily offended, however. I’ve learned that some people seem to power their lives on taking offense, and there’s no winning sometimes.

    • Also… Curious that it was 3 men who died protecting their dates, not 3 men and 3 women who died protecting their dates. 🙂

      I think being a protector is part of masculinity and femininity, but it seems to play out in different ways.

    • Christensen

      Jon, I have always enjoyed the way we have discussed this issue. You have always respected my views, and I hope I have done likewise. Even while at Moody, I remember the interesting discussions we had. And that is one reason I consider you a great friend. 🙂

      Well…as far how those men reacted in the horror of Colorado, I think “courage” often plays out in different ways in the same way that we subconsciously grab a fork instead of chopsticks. So, even the idea of courage can take on a different bent due to cultural training (just think of all the movies where courage is displayed. How it is displayed in different contexts depends on the cultural training). We often react in ways that our society programs us to react (and I would challenge you to watch how boys are often told to act in certain ways, or not act, when they deviate from what is viewed as masculine).

      But I do see your point. A book for men shouldn’t have to say every time “this is for men” and can uplift such things as being considerate, respectful and honest. I like how you kept answering that women should also be expected to have those qualities too. 🙂 I grant you that this would be silly.

      Though, with books such as “Wild at Heart” (one that I started reading but flung across the room after a chapter or two), it isn’t about saying, “you are pursuing God, so, here is how you should love those around you.” No, it states, “you are a man. Thus, you are wild at heart and want adventure. You long to dominate and lead.” It’s been a while since I threw that book across the room in disgust, but it is when I hear messages that I MUST be “manly” by exhibiting certain “machismo” qualities (such as muscle-bound courage and suffocating care of women) that I get riled up.

      But you are right. There are those who seem to thrive on being “angry” and riled up. I hope not me! 🙂 In the end, what is the point of taking offense so easily? If you are busy taking offense and yelling at each other, then no one learns. No one seeks to understand. No one can love. And love is the most important quality…for both genders. 🙂

    • Thanks Chris, I appreciate it too. And, no, I don’t see you as someone who lives on taking offense.

      I think there are complications with it all being cultural. Here’s 3.

      1. We know silverware and colors are cultural because a quick trip to another part of the world or our own history shows people using chopsticks and men wearing pink. Examples are plentiful. Are there tasty examples of cultures where the women in the theater die protecting their dates? Just because pink and blue gender associations are cultural, it doesn’t necessarily follow that every gender trait, or how traits add are lived out are.

      2. Are Americans trained to use silverware instead of chop sticks? Yes. But will Americans volunteer to be shot by using forks? The pattern seen with those guys isn’t just one of courtesy or cultural norms such as holding open the door.

      3. Raising kids makes it difficult to believe it’s all cultural. I have all boys, but our friends with both are also surprised at how early little boys and girls do things differently. Not that every boy is the same and every girl is, but that they’re different; I can’t quantify this right now, but it’s been the overwhelming experience of us and our friends and others we’ve talked to, that our kids as rather sheltered, and do things we haven’t encouraged them to do.

      On another note, I think taking offense becomes manipulative, a way to control, and I’m sure the felt need of being in control can come from many things.

  • Christensen

    Jon, you might find this funny. I am actually going to try to get a conference started here in Korea to counter the cultural norms here that put pressure on men to indulge in prostitution (and by extension sex trafficking). So, it would be a conference in which the speakers would say, “men, God did not mean you to act like this! God wants you to act like this!” So, yeah, there will be a lot of “masculinity” talk going on. 🙂 But I would prefer to think it is men submitting themselves in love to God…not as men but as servants of God. You know? Hmmm…

    • That sounds cool.

      I do wonder about the left sentence in this comment… Not as men but as people.

      I’m not sure an emasculation perspective is the way to go. The reality is that we are men. Perhaps an alternative perspective would be to use other more positive, less depraved traits/ expressions of masculinity and ask: how can we, as godly men redeem our brokenness in this area.

      Even if masculinity is totally cultural, it’s still part of who men are. Asking them to put that aside is asking someone to reject their identity, that it’s bad.

      I thin one could better encourage, for example, Midwest Americans to change on the basis of Midwest American values rather than telling them to stop seeing themselves as Midwest Americans, and act contrary to that.

    • Christensen

      I hear your point on the asking the men to put aside their identity, even if largely culturally induced. I would only add to your thoughts on children that, living overseas, it does surprise me how different boys and girls are here as compared to the US (and similar, I must admit). But I think you would be surprised at how much gender-based messages do affect children. Hmmm… I know this is my bias, too. Hmmm… But what does the Bible say? Is there a list of traits that are masculine and traits that are feminine? Aren’t many of lists of the traits, like the fruit of the Spirit, open for both genders? I’m not saying that men and women are exactly the same (I can see that quite readily), but I do think that many of the traits that are extrapolated from those slight differences have exasperated a lot of cultures and situations. I, personally, think that the main reason behind sex trafficking (which effects largely women as compared to men and is almost exclusively trafficking women) comes from many attitudes to how men should be in various cultures. That is an identity that I do want to challenge! 🙂

    • Christensen

      Please pray for that conference. It is now just an idea that I have thrown at the movers and shakers here. Please pray that it does come into reality. But when it does, I won’t heavy handed force my bent on it. 🙂 I leave that to God. 🙂